Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - movieguy23 (Wed Sep 15 2004 01:05:48 )
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I’ve been looking forward to seeing this novel made into a movie for a long time, but this has got to be the stupidest casting in recent cinema.
I have nothing against Chinese actors but whats wrong with doing a little homework and finding Japanese actors who could play the lead roles? I’m sure there are at least a dozen young lady actresses in Japan (or Japanese Americans) who could play any of the lead roles with a great degree of success.
Is it just because theres no famous Japanese actresses out there? Well, the success of “The Last Samurai” showed that actors don’t have to be famous to make a movie be good. None of the Japanese actors in “The Last Samurai” were famous here in the U.S. but they held their own – and it made the movie more authentic – and great. That’s what bottom line matters in these types of films - authenticity. Audiences want authenticity.
People ask why this casting thing is such a big issue? Well that’s it right there - authenticity. There are certain stories out there where casting has to be real for it to work. Geisha is one of those stories because it celebrates part of Japanese culture. That’s why it should have Japanese actors in it. It’s that simple.
For example a movie like Dances With Wolves which celebrates Native Americans – what if Hollywood had cast Mexicans as the Native Americans?
This is just lazy casting. It makes me applaud the producers of “The Last Samurai” who actually went out and took the time to cast real Japanese actors because they knew authenticity matters.
In the case of Geisha, it looks like they just went out and got the biggest asian names they could find to play the lead roles. Which is dumb anyway because none of those people casted are huge draws anyways in terms of box-office, so why not just cast an unknown Japanese actress and give her a shot?
At least the Japanese actress would speak fluent Japanese (as I’m sure some of the movie will have some Japanese in it). And who knows, they could have discovered a great star just like “The Last Samurai” did with Ken W. But that will never happen now.
Also, how often does a actress of Japanese descent get an opportunity to play a role like this? Never.
Another reason why they should’ve looked harder for casting Japanese actresses in the lead roles. These opportunities hardly ever come around.
I can’t believe that a book which prided itself with being so authentic to the geisha way of life is being casted without that same level of authenticity.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - US_Ken_Fan (Wed Sep 15 2004 01:26:08 )
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UPDATED Wed Sep 15 2004 01:26:47
...the success of The Last Samurai showed that actors don't have to be famous to make a movie be good. None of the Japanese actors in The Last Samurai were famous here in the U.S. but they held their own.
OMG, is that ever so true! Even down to the smallest actor who had no lines...they could act with their expressions alone, and not by over-acting, either. I think with TLS they just let the casting director go out and find whoever she pleased, since it was a U.S. movie, as you say, and they just didn't worry about names at all. Ken and Hiroyuki were big names in Japan, but even if Ken had been a nobody, they would have cast him for his talent alone...that's why the movie was so darned AWESOME!!!
In the case of Geisha, it looks like they just went out and got the biggest asian names they could find to play the lead roles. Which is dumb anyway because none of those people casted are huge draws anyways in terms of box-office, so why not just cast an unknown Japanese actress and give her a shot?
Exactly...they're only big in China, so who cares? (No disprespect to China, just that those names are not going to draw anyone over here to the movie.) I only even recognize 1 of the names, and I've never seen her in a movie, not once! People will be drawn to the movie by the book alone, and somewhat by Ken Watanabe.
Also, how often does a actress of Japanese descent get an opportunity to play a role like this? Never.
I wish they could cast Koyuki! She would actually be the perfect actress to do the part of Sayuri. Darn! If only she spoke English! Unfortunately, she cannot act this role with her face alone, like she did in The Last Samurai. It is so sad, because she can nail the complexity of Sayuri PERFECTLY! Still, how can they not find any Japanese actresses, in all of Japan, who speak some English? They could not have looked very hard at all!
Well, I'm not saying the movie will not be good, I'm just saying it could be better. After seeing the awesome actors that were found for TLS and reading MOAG book, I would race to see this movie if it had Japanese actors I did not recognize...I'd want to see what I'm missing.
Of course, I'm very much looking forward to seeing Ken in the movie, and so glad he was cast in the part everyone wanted. Fan club: http://www.kenfans.us
http://www.tmsdancer.com/ken_watanabe

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - spudboy-3 (Wed Sep 29 2004 15:01:10 )
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There's nothing dumb about the casting.
Authenticity was obviously a consideration, but the quality of the performance was the main concern.
Rob Marshal showed what he can do with an actor in CHICAGO.
Just wait and see.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - nekojita (Wed Sep 15 2004 09:35:09 )
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Is it just because theres no famous Japanese actresses out there? Well, the success of “The Last Samurai” showed that actors don’t have to be famous to make a movie be good. None of the Japanese actors in “The Last Samurai” were famous here in the U.S. but they held their own – and it made the movie more authentic – and great.
THEY DON'T HAVE TO CAST ANY FAMOUS JAPANESE ACTORS IN TLS BECAUSE TOM CRUISE ALONE COULD CARRY THIS MOVIE. YOU COULD CAST ANY JANE OR JOHN DOE WITH TOM CRUISE IN A MEDIOCRE PRODUCTION AND IT WILL STILL BE A BOX OFFICE HIT. NO OFFENSE, I THINK THE JAPANESE ACTORS IN TLS ARE GREAT AND KEN WATANABE DEFINITELY STOLE SOME OF TOM'S GLORY. HOWEVER, I DON'T THINK HOLLYWOOD WOULD EVEN CONSIDER MAKING TLS UNLESS THERE IS AN A-LIST ACTOR/DIRECTOR ON BOARD. IT'S TOO MUCH OF A RISK TO RELEASE AN ALL ASIAN CAST BIG BUDGET PRODUCTION IN HOLLYWOOD, NOT TO MENTION CASTING UNKNOWN ACTORS. That’s what bottom line matters in these types of films - authenticity. Audiences want authenticity.
IT'S NAIVE TO EXPECT AUTHENTICITY FROM HOLLYWOOD. FYI, THE GORGEOUS "AUTHENTIC" JAPANESE VILLAGE IN THE LAST SAMURAI IS ACTUALLY SHOT IN NEW ZEALAND. AND DON'T GET YOUR HOPES UP TOO HIGH IF YOU'RE EXPECTING TO SEE THE INTERIOR OF AN AUTHENTIC JAPANESE GEISHA HOUSE IN KYOTO. IT'S PROBABLY GOING TO BE SOME STUDIO IN BURBANK, CA. IF AUDIENCES WANT AUTHENTICITY, THEY SHOULD GO AND SEE A DOCUMENTARY.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - choden (Wed Sep 15 2004 12:02:08 )
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IF AUDIENCES WANT AUTHENTICITY, THEY SHOULD GO AND SEE A DOCUMENTARY.
So, is this the new motto of Hollywood? If it really is, how desperate and unfair. Even the most commercial films can be authentic and there are many examples of movies that are both authentic and commercial in the history of cinema. Nowadays, many people are interested in Japanese culture and it is not be a big risk to make a film out of a best selling novel, with an original Japanese cast.
It's easy to yell at people who point out the discrimination in the process of casting and criticize the motives of the producers; however yelling at them will not make a right from the total mistake. Maybe we all should grateful for they didn’t cast Cameron Diaz as Sayuri or Jackie Chan as Mr Chairman… "We have faith in the poison. We know how to give our whole life every day."(A. Rimbaud)

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - countessmorgana (Thu Sep 16 2004 16:43:48 )
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What amazes me is that with all the big-name Chinese talent, they could only find two actors of Japanese heritage who had proficency in both English and Japanese. Ken Watanabe's performance in "The Last Samurai" was indeed acclaimed, and I believe he is capable of bringing the Chairman to life. Youki Kudoh, although better known in Japan for her singing career and for her role as a katana-wielding vampire exterminator in the anime "Blood: The Last Vampire", also gave an excellent performance in "Snow Falling on Cedars". These two are talented, and I have no doubt they will do well. Unfortunately, only two actors may not be able to save this movie.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - Bluezipz13 (Thu Sep 23 2004 20:15:16 )
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--IF AUDIENCES WANT AUTHENTICITY, THEY SHOULD GO AND SEE A DOCUMENTARY.
--So, is this the new motto of Hollywood? If it really is, how desperate and unfair Look, there's a certain amount of authenticity and a certain amount of entertainment in movies...after all, movies are made to be ENTERTAINING. True, they could do both, but have you ever notice how they say a movie is BASED on a novel? They can't possibly fit in everything. True, they could do all their research and try to make things as authentic as possible, down to the last tatami mat, but again, a movie's main purpose is to entertain.
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Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - Indie84 (Thu Sep 16 2004 19:15:10 )
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It's pretty funny that people mention the authenticity of the book when arguing for an all-Japanese cast, since the book itself was written by a middle-aged American man. And there's nothing wrong with that; that's the point made by the book's success and integrity. If anything, this movie in particular should be free to cast with plausibility, not strict 'authenticity' (as defined by this thread), in mind.
First of all, realistically most Americans don't know the difference or care anyway. Which isn't necessarily a good thing, but true nonetheless.
Secondly, it's interesting that people keep saying that they just 'chose the biggest Chinese names' they could come up with, and yet simultaneously claim defiant ignorance as to their work. They aren't just known in China; the funny thing is, they're all critically acclaimed here, too. (All of them, not just the Chinese actors too; check out 'Shall We Dance' for our future Nobu with the awkward charm turned all the way up.) And not just in indie mags. Try the NY Times for a gushing article on the 'overdue' return of the luminous Li Gong. Additionally, some of these actors are playing against type (as we know it); in Ziyi Zhang's biggest and most recent two films she plays a petulant, emotional girl-woman; here she'll have to show much more self-possession and delicacy.
Thirdly, Westerners have this strange authenticity obsession with Asian actors' actual ethnic background, mostly because they like to think it makes them superior for even knowing the difference. No one cares if an American plays a Brit or vice versa, except for maybe critiquing their accents. But no one objects 'on principle' to Gwyneth Paltrow in Shakespeare in Love or Judi Dench in Shipping News or any Western equivalent. Or Jeffrey Wright as every minority in the book (and awesome every time.) Yes, it would have been exciting to find some shining Japanese star out of nowhere for this film, just as the Japanese supporting cast of Last Samurai was far more thrilling than anything Tom Cruise could muster in the way of shimmering or smoldering screen presence. But does that mean that Asia's best and brightest won't turn out a good, or an authentic, film? Hardly.

A few things to Indie84  by - US_Ken_Fan (Sat Sep 18 2004 00:56:34 )
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UPDATED Sat Sep 18 2004 00:57:59
First of all, this thread is not about "strict authenticity", it is about Hollywood (maybe) being too lazy to find the right people to play the parts.
2nd, as to Americans not knowing the difference, everyone who read the book will know the difference, regardless of where they're coming from. It's hard enough to convert something like this into a film and keep the complexity and subtleties of the book in any case, so the studio shouldn't be shooting itself in the foot by failing to search for the "right" actors the way Ed Zwick did for TLS.
3rd, I did NOT contradict myself about the Chinese actresses, the whole point is they are huge in CHINA not over here. Being "critically acclaimed" does not necessarily mean they are well-known to your average person. The same is true of Koji Yakusho, if not for Ken and TLS, I wouldn't have a clue about him, or even (not MOAG) Hiroyuki Sanada, the most popular actor in Japan. That is par for the course for most people here except those that have a particular interest in Japanese culture, anime, or kung-fu movies. Most people just go to a movie because their freinds recommend it or they like the previews or they are a fan of a particular actor. I did not claim "defiant ignorance" to anyone's work--sorry, but my choice of movie-viewing in the past had nothing to do with any magical foreknowledge of conversations on this board with you that you must be imagining!
Most people in the U.S. don't know who Ken Watanabe is, either, and he was nominated for an Oscar for crying out loud! (OK, I know it's worse 'cause I live in New England, and no one went to the movies for a month 'cause the weather was so bitterly cold and windy...still, mention "Ken Watanabe" and most people say "Ken who?" They didn't bother to read the credits.)
The whole point is it depends on the movie what type of actor you need, and this is one of those stories that requires attention to detail and actors/actresses who can do it. Fan club: http://www.kenfans.us
http://www.tmsdancer.com/ken_watanabe
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Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - missy_lee (Mon Sep 20 2004 14:12:39 )
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Hmm, I do see what you mean. I am Chinese, and once I heard the casting I said to my Japanese friend that I thought the lead roles perhaps shoulda been given to Japanese actors. She disagreed, and said so what if they're Chinese actors, as long as they do the job right and make it a success, it shouldn't matter. However, I stand by my point; if a movie were to be made about China, I would expect Chinese actors to at least play one of the lead roles, it's a matter of, as stated before, authenticity.
Then again, as afore mentioned, the novel was written by an American, which in no way means its unauthentic, but maybe not as authentic as a it would be if a Japanese wrote it. And so it may not seem as big a deal if Chinese actors play the lead roles.
As for the debate of whether Zhang Ziyi and co were cast because of their bankability, I must say that it does make sense. Sure, they're not famous enough for ppl in the West to say "oh, it's Gong Li" or someone, but they'll see a face, recognise it from hits such as James Bond or Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, and think "oooh, it's a famous person from China and some film I've seen before." Because it is an all Asian cast, they need to hype it up in whichever way they can (this is Hollywood afterall, not an authentic Japanese movie) Having famous Asian faces is better than having non-famous Asian faces when you're talking about bankability.
And (as already mentioned again!) arguing that TLS was a success even with unknown Japanese actors is a bit different, because, essentially it was a Tom Cruise movie, the billboards had Tom Cruise's face spalshed across them.
Those are my thoughts on why the cast was cast...but I still understand and agree with the thoughts that Japanese actors shoulda been cast instead. The thing is, I think this is gonna be one of those films catered to Hollywood and the West, and probably not to Japanese or the East. An example would be Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon; Chinese yes, but not the best film China has ever seen (anyone who is Chinese and fluent in Mandarin will tell you the God-awful accents of Michelle Yeoh and Chow Yun Fat, not to mention the cliched-ness of everything) I dunno...perhaps I am completely wrong and the whole film will be authentic and brilliant, I hope so anyhow cause I enjoyed the novel so much.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - tenshikiss (Tue Sep 21 2004 00:19:31 )
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i could not agree with you more!!!! you put everything i was feeling into words!!! it's not that i think badly of zhang ziyi's acting abilities, but the book is about a *japanese* girl and there are plenty of talented japanese actresses that would make a more authentic and believable sayuri. i could understand mebbe extras or minor characters getting cast by non-japanese, but the lead??? grRrr... i'm so infuriated right now!!

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - plathworship (Tue Sep 21 2004 06:43:00 )
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Well. What can you expect from Hollywood. Most of the producers cant tell the difference between Chinese people and Japanese people. Plus they need to cash in on big stars like Zhang Ziyi and etc so...
Yeah I wish they would've cast Japanese women for the roles but well... what can u do.. let's just hope they don't muck it up too much.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - shiam22 (Tue Sep 21 2004 11:24:58 )
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I totally agree- AUTHENTICITY!! I am a Japanese aspiring actress- which means I am a no-name actress *SIGH* Well not yet anyway.I found out about the casting call one week too late- Today I tried finding more info regarding casting calls for memoirs of a geisha
and I found zero-zip-zilch- nada. Did the crew already leave for Japan? Awww Darn!!
Anyhew in regards to your post- I don't know if it is lazy casting so much as it is casting familiar faces which brings in the buku box office dollars $$$CHA-CHING$$$
I love your comparison w/dances w/wolves and totally agree 100% What if Hollywood had cast Mexicans as Native Americans. Point made-
What happened to the authenticity? Casting choice- BAKA!! Anyhew if you hear of any open calls- please support your local Japanese actresses *chuckle* and let us know.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - US_Ken_Fan (Wed Sep 22 2004 18:24:11 )
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Shiam22, good luck with your career. I hope you can get in a movie with at least small line or two. (That's enough for people to remember you the next time they see you, if you do a good job.) Fan club: http://www.kenfans.us
http://www.tmsdancer.com/ken_watanabe
Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - borimierdude (Thu Sep 23 2004 20:13:56 )
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They should put the chick who played Go Go (in Kill Bill) in it, she was HOT!!!
Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - Bluezipz13 (Thu Sep 23 2004 20:18:06 )
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--IF AUDIENCES WANT AUTHENTICITY, THEY SHOULD GO AND SEE A DOCUMENTARY.
--So, is this the new motto of Hollywood? If it really is, how desperate and unfair Look, there's a certain amount of authenticity and a certain amount of entertainment in movies...after all, movies are made to be entertaining. Ever notice how they say a movie is based on a novel? They can't possibly fit in everything. True, they could do all their research and try to make things as authentic as possible, down to the last tatami mat, but again, a movie's main purpose is to entertain.
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Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - skeeterkitty (Fri Sep 24 2004 15:36:55 )
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Maybe they tried to find someone?
I know they were looking at all the SAG actors first before going out to the non-union and general public and beyond.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - smulder (Sun Sep 26 2004 06:34:08 )
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Anybody thought about casting a Texan as Bridget Jones? Or Johnny Depp as the Scottish author J M Barrie in Finding Neverland?
Give them a break until the film is out. You never know you might like it.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - animered69 (Wed Sep 29 2004 00:26:14 )
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UPDATED Wed Sep 29 2004 00:33:53
I totally agree... alot of you are already knocking the chinese actors' acting abilities before you have even seen the movie!! I mean if they are famous asian actors the are famous for a reason... THEY ARE GREAT ACTORS!!!!I saw last samurai...thought Tom sucked in that one was totally wrong for the roll, Ken was great..LOVED Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon...thought Michelle and Zhang Ziyi were awesome..also saw zhou yu's train ..And Li Gong was great in that. So they can all act and very well in my opinion(though i'm no critic).....yet:)

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - happy619 (Mon Sep 27 2004 17:54:44 )
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Omar Sherif is obviously not Russin but he was awesome in Dr. Zhivago..

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - parissocialite (Mon Sep 27 2004 20:31:04 )
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they are ACTORS and they are ACTING. who cares where they are from after the hollywood people have already cast them. we can't do anything about it.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - annie_j_kelley (Fri Oct 1 2004 14:18:40 )
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" I can’t believe that a book which prided itself with being so authentic to the geisha way of life is being casted without that same level of authenticity. "
You see, that's very ironic, because the book itself isn't authentic at all. In fact, the reason this movie took so long to come out was because there was a big controversy about how Arthur Golden made stuff up about the Geisha. If you want something more authentic, I would suggest reading _Geisha: A Life_ by Mineko Iwasaki, which was written in response to Arthur Golden's monster of a book.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - evin1221 (Sun Oct 3 2004 21:28:31 )
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I agree with you. I previously sent in my comment, see posting "I really don't want to see
this film any longer." Every person of whom I speak to about, mentioned the
casting and it not express my opinion, were saddened by the fact that the leads were
not casted for the sake of authencitiy.....oh....well.... FYI...I live in the SF Bay area.
When I heard about the open casting (very short notice), I called everyone I knew. My aunt lives in Southern California and did not know anything about it. She mentioned
that nothing was posted in the Japanese newspapers.
Oh...well...guess....THEY do not care about what we think.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - evin1221 (Sun Oct 3 2004 21:33:29 )
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I agree with you. I previously sent in my comment, see posting "I really don't want to see
this film any longer." Every person of whom I speak to about, mentioned the
casting and it not express my opinion, were saddened by the fact that the leads were
not casted for the sake of authencitiy.....oh....well.... FYI...I live in the SF Bay area.
When I heard about the open casting (very short notice), I called everyone I knew. My aunt lives in Southern California and did not know anything about it. She mentioned
that nothing was posted in the Japanese newspapers.
Oh...well...guess....THEY do not care about what we think.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - Errand (Thu Oct 7 2004 14:43:11 )
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Agree. This is another example of Hollywood thinking that most viewers are too dumb to tell the difference...and they could be right. They are just playing the number game.
Another bad example is Chow Y Fat in "Anna and the King". He looked nothing like the people around him :-) . Chow looked to me like a Hong Kong CEO, not a king of an "ancient" country.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - White_base_groupie (Sat Oct 9 2004 18:19:27 )
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How about a German as the role of the Greek Helen of Troy, which is a Greek tale and important to Greek culture? Or an American as the Greek hero Achilles?
You guys would HATE theatre. I don't think the role of Kim in Miss Saigon (Vietnamese) has ever really been played by a Vietnamese girl.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - Errand (Sun Oct 10 2004 05:12:39 )
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Bratt Pitt would make a bad MODERN Greek. But "Troy" was a fantasy, so it did not matter much. BTW, no one take "Troy" seriously anyway; may be you should use a more reputable/serious movie as an example.
Miss Saigon's casting was bad too, but more forgivable because it is difficult to find good singer. On the other hand, good actresses are everywhere. Re: Dumb, Dumb,

Dumb Casting  by - nekojita (Sun Oct 10 2004 05:46:50 )
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What about a hawaiian canadian as Buddha?

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - kwong521 (Thu Oct 14 2004 19:50:26 )
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I agree that the casting is terrible, and I'm very disappointed. WEll, no, let me rephrase that...the casting wasn't "terrible", but it probably could be a lot better. I have nothing against Chinese actresses (I am Chinese), but these sorts of opportunities for foreign actresses to make an impression on American cinema only come once in a while. Why didn't they cast Japanese actresses in the roles? I especially don't understand why Zhang Ziyi got the lead role. She is very overrated as an actress. They should have cast Koyuki (The last samurai) or Chiaki Kuriyama (GoGo from Kill Bill) or Kou Shibasaki (Battle Royale) if they wanted name recognition. I would love for them to gain more international recognition. And they deserve it.
If this were a Chinese film, I would feel differently, of course. It's not about authenticity. I know that people can effectively portray people of different races. But it's about opportunity, and I wish they gave Japanese actresses the opportunity.

Re: Koyuki...  by - US_Ken_Fan (Thu Oct 14 2004 21:28:07 )
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UPDATED Thu Oct 14 2004 21:43:28
...does not speak English. If not for that "little" problem, yeah, she'd be pefect. This part was made for someone with her abilities.
And you need to keep in mind that while Ken Watanabe learned English for The Last Samurai, his part did not require near as much speaking, and Ken had trained at an English theatre company for a little while when he was a young man, so I think that helped him formally learn English quick enough to have the exact level of fluency actually appropriate to a his character of Katsumoto, who as a former member of the council would have learned some English in his international travels. Also, he is not the star (ok, he's the "de-facto star" and is not featured in the entirety of the movie)...and remember there's less talking in this movie than usual, even for an action film.
In contrast, Sayuri is the far major character in Memoirs of a Geisha and if we are to suspend our sense of reality enough to forget that these characters speaking English are really speaking Japanese, but that we as the audience are able to hear them, we can't have somebody starring in it that actually speaks Japanese and is obviously struggling with the most basic English.
I don't know who Koyuki's agency is, but they need to get her into some English classes, and quickly. A lot of people know who she is now (or at least recognize her face), and they need to capitalize on that and get her an English-speaking role or two...they can't wait for some big movie production to approach her like what happened with Ken.
As a side note, it surprizes me that Shin Koyomada (who played "Nobutada", Katsumoto's son, in The Last Samurai) speaks such perfect English! ...
...oh wait, this is getting way too off-subject and belongs in another forum, and I have some questions about that, too.
Well, let's leave it that Koyuki is obviously in demand even among American audiences and she needs to take advantage of that while she can, even if she doesn't plan to "migrate" to Hollywood as Ken appears to be doing. Surely, with her talents, she should at least be taking on more international roles, and more serious ones, too, compared to some of the juvenile movies I've seen advetised (but I admit, I haven't watched as I don't live in Japan). Fan club: http://www.kenfans.us
http://www.tmsdancer.com/ken_watanabe

Dumb Casting and dumb setting!.  by - yuki-chan (Fri Oct 15 2004 01:11:13 )
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I'm a new here and an earnest moviegoer in Tokyo. When we heard about the casting of this movie, majority of Japanese movie fan were furious and upset.
Casting Chinese actress as Japanese Geisha!! Didn't the staff know there was
a huge anti-Japan movement now in China? We believe this film could definitely
banned in China. (OK, they don't care about Chinese Market)
Then I heard about Rob Marchall had chosen the Oiran costume for Geisha
costume. Oiran never existed in Kyoto. They are the same category of Geisha
in Edo(ancient Tokyo) Are Non-existent now, and are only for tourist attactions,with a lot of decorations in the head, while Geisha wears very simple kimono usually black kimono with flower patterns. It's really really absurd choice.
But do not worry. We, Japanese are expecting this movie, as a great comedy
we can laugh loud at it.

Re: Dumb Casting and dumb setting!.  by - shanesvoboda (Sun Oct 17 2004 01:57:28 )
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Shogun version two would have been nice.
Re: Dumb Casting and dumb setting!.  by - Errand (Sun Oct 17 2004 04:21:53 )
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"We believe this film could definitely banned in China. "
Don't be silly, why would they ban a movie about a Japanese prostitute?

Re: Dumb Casting and dumb setting!.  by - yuki-chan (Sun Oct 17 2004 18:43:34 )
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It's not about a Japanese prostitute they might ban. It's because the "Chinese"
actress plays the Japanese prostitute they seem to despise so much!

Re: Dumb Casting and dumb setting!.  by - XuanJieLih (Tue Oct 19 2004 01:35:03 )
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Your ignorance is so alarming that it makes it laughable. If you look in terms of first of all what movies China tends to ban, it usually centers around events during the Cultural Revolution. Or it centers around heavily anti-Communist plot. I don't see either in this film.
Secondly, the Anti-Japan movement isn't something just RECENT. It has been spurred on for a long time ever since World War II. This movie has nothing to do with that. Chinese people (And Koreans by the way) don't despise the concept of the Geisha rather than the mass enslaving of thousands of women during Japanese WWII activities. But I'm sure you didn't know that. Your government is so ridiculously unable to face the truth of the issue you had mass mailings against a manga which discussed events during WWII. The Japanese government has far greater probability of banning this film than China (Many Japanese, including geishas, have strongly criticized the book as inaccurate in the first place).
Lastly: Since when was the last time America mad an authentic movie? I seem to remember Charlie Chan and a bunch of weird "asian" actors spouting off "Confucian sayings". Hollywood's lack of authenticity isn't anything new. Rather it's just continuing a tradition of fiction.
While I agree with the general idea, that it would have been great to see more Japanese actors in this movie (I thought it was awkward too but I want to see how this film actually goes) But this surprise about inauthentic movies from Hollywood is instead the more surprising. And random claims about movies being banned in China just because one nation has failed to apologize for one of the most atrocious acts in history is so ridiculous you should be ashamed of yourself.

Re: Dumb Casting and dumb setting!.  by - Errand (Wed Oct 20 2004 07:37:51 )
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XuanJieLih is absolutely right on all 4 points.

Re: Dumb Casting and dumb setting!.  by - cate_elise_blanchett (Fri Oct 22 2004 00:49:15 )
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" Don't be silly, why would they ban a movie about a Japanese prostitute? "
In the first place, Errand, Sayuri is not supposed to ba a prostitute.Memoirs of A Geisha itself is a very inaccurate book of the life of a geisha...Though training is somewhat similar in the book,the geisha is NOT a prostitute.She is an artist.The book was more about the life of a Japanese Courtesan!!!
Next, there has always been ill-feeling towards the Japanese due to the war crimes in World War 2 and several artists(actresses...singers) in China.Zhang Zhi Yi is one of the rare few who deserve being hated by the Chinese.She's not a good actress at all.She's more like Keanu Reeves, can't act and only can look pretty like a flower vase.
The Japanese have a wonderful culture that is so refine.Do not and I repeat, DO NOT insult it by making a movie that is doomed to fail.The book may be great but is definitely NOT accurate.

Re: Dumb Casting and dumb setting!.  by - Errand (Fri Oct 22 2004 09:11:35 )
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I must admit I know very little about geisha. Here is an honest question: Do they sleep with men as part of their profession? If yes, then they are prostitudes. If not, then I owe them an apology. Or more precisely, does the geisha in this movie do that?
I am not here to judge, I know there are people 10 times better than me who are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. But fact is fact.
For the last time, Beijing won't ban a movie just because it is a Japanese story. Very silly for anyone to think that. They are only sensitive to political materials. (If they tattoo "Taiwan Independence" to the geisha's breast, then yes it will be ban.)

Re: Dumb Casting and dumb setting!.  by - cate_elise_blanchett 4 days ago (Wed Oct 27 2004 01:14:18 )
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Basically geishas DO NOT sleep with men as a living.They go through a rigid training to perfect the skills of the performing arts and be good hostesses.They make very charming wives according to my friends who live there in Japan, great for politicians.Any way, Geishas are more like normal people like us except for the occasional affair that sometimes happen between them and their client.However they don't always go around sleeping with anyone as they please.Sometimes there are arrangements to tie them to a certain person, to be their patron.So the geisha would be at their patron's beck and call.It was a status quo to have a geisha at your beck and call in the old days!!It was not abnormal for them to sleep with their patron but the geishas were not loose women.They were like movie stars who had made it to hollywood.However they were not cheap or loose women.like i said earlier, geishas are NOT courtesans (as described in the book)!!!!!

Re: Dumb Casting and dumb setting!.  by - cate_elise_blanchett 4 days ago (Wed Oct 27 2004 01:22:16 )
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By the way, Sayuri is not technically a geisha.She's a courtesan who has been romanticised and is termed a geisha. And i did not say Beijing would ban the movie because its Japanese.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - yuki_grid35 (Mon Oct 18 2004 04:01:18 )
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UPDATED Mon Oct 18 2004 04:02:35
the only casting im pleased w/ is ken watanabe as the chairman, michelle yeoh as mameha and yuki kudoh as pumpkin..
why -- WHY did they have to use ziang ziyi.. she is so lame and can't act. they really should have chosen a japanese- at least for the leading role.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - hapahaole (Mon Oct 18 2004 16:23:28 )
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One thing I don't understand --- Why is it that they cast a Japanese child as Chiyo who will grow up to be an adult Northern Chinese woman (Zang Ziyi)??? Do they think no one will notice ??? Why couldn't they have an Asian assistant to the casting directors advising on Asian features , it is clear Hollywood does not understand that Japanese and Chinese do not look alike ! Same thing with casting a half asian as Pumpkin who looks nothing like the adult . I don't get it ??? They did this same thing in The Joy Luck Club , I find it baffling !!!

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - jerryku (Sun Oct 24 2004 03:02:21 )
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I completely agree with this post. it's really messed up that a movie completely about japanese culture has a chinese lead actress. The chinese actors/actresses and Hollywood should know better. It's a historical movie, it's not some meaningless action movie or comedy. It's about real Japanese people. Hollywood did the same thing for Pearl Harbor, almost everyone in that movie is Vietnamese. Pearl Harbor is about war, a very serious matter that shouldn't be toyed with lightly.
Don't get me wrong, a "race-blind" movie industry would be great. But that's not what's being done here. If Hollywood wants to throw people around regardless of what their origin is, then damn, Chinese actors better be allowed to apply for the role of George Washington or somethin. :)

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - nekojita (Sun Oct 24 2004 06:57:13 )
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Is it true that Chow Yun Fat will be playing the role of George Washington?
Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - Haib 6 days ago (Mon Oct 25 2004 05:27:16 )
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I totally agree - this casting is ridiculous. Also, having lived in Asia I find Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese all distinctive looking, and it annoys me sometimes when Hollywood casts Chinese people playing Japanese and such like. For example, Lucy Lui in Kill Bill played a Japanese - but she does not look Japanese at all. As much as I like Zhang ZiYi and Michelle Yeoh, it would have been much much better to have Japanese women playing Japanese roles.

Re: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Casting  by - Ivan_Y1p 5 days ago (Tue Oct 26 2004 13:25:49 )
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Lucy Lui was playing a half-Japanese half-Chinese woman, not a pure Japanese woman.

Re: Dumb but smart.  by - Errand 6 days ago (Mon Oct 25 2004 11:56:20 )
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First of all, I agree with almost everyone here that only a Japanese can portrait a Japanese well. Especially in a drama like this one. (In fun action flix like KillBill I doesn't really matter.)
However, let's not forget the producer are in it to make money. Zhang will sell more ticket in US because she is best known Asian actress here and most Americans don't give a dawn about the different nationalities.
More importantly, she will also sell more tickets in ASIA. Let's not forget that East Asia is dorminated by Chinese population. If this movie break records there, you will see this kind of "mis-cast" for a long long time. And you can't blame Zhang for this. If someone pay me millions to play Stalin, I would too (And trust me, I don't look anything like him).
Money talks. It is not ignorance, not hatred, not politics, just ECONOMICS. Without

Re: Dumb but smart.  by - silkroadfilms 6 days ago (Mon Oct 25 2004 12:54:24 )
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The movie will bomb in Asia. Chinese people do not want to see Zhang Zi Yi or their other leading actresses in the parts of a Japanese geisha's. There is still a great deal of resentment of the Japanese for atrocities in WWII. It may not seem like a big deal to Westerners but trust me the resentment is still there. So "Geisha" will have to do all it's business in the western markets. Japan isn't going to welcome this movie with open arms. "Last Samurai" was at least a bit authentic with it's casting and it was a huge hit in Japan but even with Ken Watanabe in the "Geisha" nothing will get Asian audiences to watch this.

Re: Dumb but smart.  by - Errand 6 days ago (Mon Oct 25 2004 13:54:57 )
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Funny, so the Chinese are upset because a Chinese plays a Japanese.
And the Japanese are upset because a Chinese plays a Japanese.
The world we live in is so funny.

Re: Dumb but smart.  by - california_maki 5 days ago (Tue Oct 26 2004 15:11:52 )
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In my opinion, this movie should not be made at all. The book is great, but NOT authentic (as generally accepted). I have nothing against the book, I think it's a perfectly valid reading material. But the fact that its inauthenticity caused a rave in Japan makes all the difference. As we all know, for the Japanese, the book may cause a great misunderstanding and misintepretation of Japanese culture in the western world. That is the main issue that the Japanese is worried about. And to make a motion picture based on the book is way to controversial because it jeopardizes the sensitive issue of cultural authenticity.
Alas, Hollywood have decided to produce the movie. However, It's not the end of the world.
About the casting, I have to admit that at first, I was shocked for a split-second that most of the leads are played by Chinese, not Japanese. I mean, Zhang Ziyi? didn't make sense to me. The first Japanese name that enters my mind to replace Zhang Ziyi is Hitomi Kuroki. In my opinion she would be perfect for the role (she's a little bit too old, however). Anyway, that's just a suggestion. I adore her charismatic performance in "Sada".
but suddenly I realized that Hitomi Kuroki would be pronounced "Hito-what who??" in Hollywood. I have to agree that since its establishment, hollywood is not, and perhaps never will be, a source of authenticity. After all, its biggest market is the US, and every major hollywood release should be modified to suit American taste first and foremost.
It is unfortunate that there aren't as many well-established Japanese Actors in Hollywood as opposed to their Chinese counterparts. But that's the reality, and as sad as it is, Hollywood have to cast well-known chinese names to fill in Japanese roles if it intends to sell the movie. Which leads me to think that after all, actresses ARE actresses, and don't blame Hollywood for casting Zhang Ziyi, the main focus is to blame Zhang Ziyi if she fails to portray a true Japanese Geisha.
For the Japanese: maybe you should not protest too much about the casting. Anyway, the book is written by a non-Japanese, and you should not care so much on whether or not movie is bad. Who cares if the actresses do not live up to your expectations? Japanese have nothing to be blamed for in this entire production.
Furthermore, this is definitely not the first case of a cross-nationality casting in Hollywood. This point has been repeatedly made in the previous postings. This doesn't mean that such movies cannot be appreciated. Think of it this way: Although Diane Kruger, a German, is a bad idea to fill the role of Helen of Troy, but would you rather watch her, or Nia Vardalos for that role? or Olympia Dukakis? (hahaha...I know I'm not being sensible)
I know that I'm saying this from a non-Greek perspective. I honestly don't know how do the Greeks feel about watching the greatest piece of their literature being portrayed by not even a single Greek lead cast. I think that the sight of a Chinese playing a Japanese geisha might annoy the majority of Japanese viewers. (heck, being a Japanese speaker, I was even annoyed by the way Lucy Liu speaks Japanese in Kill Bill).
We should also remember that Zhang Ziyi will have to bear the pressure of portraying a Japanese - not JUST a japanese, but a Geisha, which some consider as an epitome of one of Japan's many faces.

Re: Dumb but smart.  by - bleinfelder 5 days ago (Tue Oct 26 2004 16:49:01 )
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I skimmed through the comments, and thought there were good points on both sides of the argument. Interesting to note, however, that when New Line Cinema had the rights to "Frida" ten years ago, and were ready to start shooting it with Laura San Giacommo (sp?) as Frida, there was a HUGE uproar from the Latino community about casting a non-latino as Frida. I understand there is a difference in someone representing an iconic artist from Mexico, vs. "geishas" in Japan, but one thing people who are on the pro-Chinese "name actresses" side(yeah, right)haven't mentioned or addressed is that....geishas are a distinctly Japanese cultural phenomenon. We have had plenty of Chinese films, beautiful ones mostly by Xiang Yimou about courtesan/concubine life ("Raise the red lantern", "Shanghai trilogy") but none on this level about geisha life.
I appreciated California Maki's comment about Olympia Dukakis or Nia Vardalos (gulp) as Helen of Troy...yeah, beauty may have been more important than authenticity there. (and our modern American Calvin Klein concept of beauty, it seems). How ridiculous was Brad Pitt as Achilles? Oh dear.
Anyway, the deed is done, we shall see what will happen. Somehow the whole argument that the book was written by a non-Japanese has nothing to do with the casting issue and I don't know why it was even lumped together in this argument. He wrote a great book, no question. But geishas are a part of Japanese culture. It seems to perpetuate the "all Asians are alike" mentality that we should be moving away from...so that, I think, is the main underlying evil. Not so much "name" and "no-name" b.s., but lumping Asians together.

Re: Dumb but smart.  by - chconnol 4 days ago (Wed Oct 27 2004 09:42:28 )
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This is quite a hot topic and I didn't have a chance to read through all of the posts so if I'm reiterating something said previously, I apologize.
First my two cents on casting: YES, it should've been cast with Japanese actors and actresses. Going further, it would've been more interesting to have it actually SPOKEN in Japanese with subtitles. Very daring.
And here's why Hollywood didn't cast Japanese actors in the film: they figured that most Americans can't/won't differentiate between all the cultures of Asia. They took the mentality of "what the hell. Most people won't recognize the difference."
There is a BIG, HUGE lack of education in this country regarding the subtle differences between Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc. cultures. It's hardly even touched upon. I know a Chinese couple (he's from China; her parents are but she was born in the U.S.) Talking with them I learned how different the cultures and language are between Cantonese (him) and Mandarin (her). They said that it was like the difference between the French and German in Europe. THAT different. Made my eyes open quite a bit. They also said they hate it when people just lump all "Asian" cultures into one pot like they're all the same. The woman said "Imagine if we did that to Europeans? Just saying that the French and Germans are the same? That's what it's like." Again, I found this fascinating.
The US, being WESTERN, has for a long time devoted it's teaching of history mainly to the western sphere. Oh, Eastern history is touched upon but the obvious emphasis is placed on Western history and ideals. I discovered this in my own studies of the Byzantine Empire. I cannot remember learning much of anything about this extraordinary Empire of the East. When a historian commented about the fact that Western teachings tended to deal with Eastern "stuff" very faltingly, I couldn't have agreed more.
So in a nutshell, the studio backing "Memoirs of a Geisha" are ruining the film for lovers of the book (like me) casting Chinese in the principle roles. If I see the movie, I know I'm going to sit there thinking "these are Chinese playing Japanese" and it's not going to feel right. But, I hate to say this, most Americans aren't going to care or notice. And that's what the studios are banking on.

Re: Dumb but smart.  by - silkroadfilms 3 days ago (Thu Oct 28 2004 00:59:23 )
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I don't agree with the Troy analogy, Greek myths have been portrayed dozens of times through out film history and again the story are myths. People can differentiate between modern Greeks and the screen portrayals of the mythical Greek heroes. I agree with above comment that American schools definitely tend to emphasize western history. In high school I learned from a history book that contained hundreds of pages about Greek history while the entire chapter for China was about 24 pages long.
The danger of a movie like "Geisha" is that it will be looked at as an ethnography, a generalization about Japanese culture throughth eyes of Hollywood.
I seriously doubt many Americans will go into the theater with any prior understanding of the culture where the Geisha comes from and when they leave the theater their only knowledge will be a very skewed one from a screwy Hollywood film. If there were more diverse roles for Asians in Hollywood then this argument wouldn't even be taking place. With so few roles for Asians, everything is scrutinized under a microscope because we're all going to have to live with those screen portrayals for years and years.
Just imagine if the tables were turned and the only movie about Caucasians coming out this year was the film "Slingblade." How skewed would your view be if Billy Bob the retarded slingblade wielding murderer was the only film you saw about about white people?
Filmgoers should keep in mind that Memoirs of a Geisha is a 2 hour Hollywood fantasy about Asian women and about as accurate a portrayal about Japanese culture as the Spielberg movie "1942" was about WWII.
 
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